tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post3858222966819891185..comments2023-10-30T19:03:59.225+01:00Comments on David Seaton's News Links: The Kochs: paying to keep America dumbDavid Seaton's Newslinkshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00269813419598042699noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-10550406571413530812010-09-12T16:08:28.291+02:002010-09-12T16:08:28.291+02:00This is very late in the game, though I have been ...This is very late in the game, though I have been awake for a while.....Religion may have a role to play in civic life; de Toqueville's writings may be illuminating; teabagger religious posturing leaves no room for co-operation. Only flat rejection of their intolerance is possible. To equate the ravings of Beck or this Gainesville pastor with MLK just on the basis of a common "religious" factor is wishing uncomfortable details down the rabbithole, where those of us more drawn to smelling coffee than rosaries plan new ways of being obstacles to peace in our time.stuntednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-80768329852254110622010-09-08T21:17:52.129+02:002010-09-08T21:17:52.129+02:00This is one of your best essays yet, and right on ...This is one of your best essays yet, and right on the mark. I think there is much more potential for an anti-globalism, pro-poor civic movement motivated largely by religion that your other commentators indicated. I very MUCH disagree with the comment that disparaged the idea of a religiously motivated movement based on Constitutional concerns. A movement can be motivated by religion without attempting to institute a form of state religion. Give me a break! <br /><br />The civil rights movement was formed largely in terms of religious language and doctrine. Did MLK really threaten the "separation of church and state"? Au contraire! He strengthened civil society, and therefore strengthened the state.<br /><br />The complete inability of agnostic or atheist progressives to realize the positive contributions that religion can bring to civic life is the biggest obstacle. And they certainly are not very well-read, because they haven't read or digested Tocqueville. Wake up, progressive, and smell the rosaries.Jacob Gitteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10559764359800682222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-58101016388095184512010-09-03T21:40:16.238+02:002010-09-03T21:40:16.238+02:00I sent your "The Kochs: paying to keep Americ...I sent your "The Kochs: paying to keep America dumb" to a couple dozen lefty friends here on the Lefty Coast of USA. I asked for their thoughts on you Liberation Theology idea. I received some interesting replies. Here's what some of them wrote:<br /><br />Hi Jay:<br /> <br />As a cradle Catholic who has spent most of his life in America's heartland - the Midwest - I believe I can speak from personal experience about Liberation Theology. Its application in the Catholic parishes to which my family belonged exacerbated the existing political divide within the parishes. It didn't ameliorate it. So if Liberation Theology doesn't work in small organizations like parishes, it sure won't work nationally. <br /> <br />At the origins of the American Experiment, the founding fathers recognized that religious differences can cause strife and are based on beliefs which are not negotiable. So they created a secular nation-state whose constitution clearly specifies that there shall be no establishment of a state religion. Absent this provision, the America created by the founding fathers ceases to exist. <br /> <br />Since Liberation Theology is essentially a religious philosophy, it should no more be civically institutionalized than Islam or Evangelical Christianity or any Christian sect for that matter. The various Christian sects have battled each other for centuries, so making Christianity the official American state religion won't work either.<br /> <br />That said, I do subscribe to the morality implicit in Liberation Theology because, upon analysis, I see it is a reasonable interpretation of the bible's presentation of the morality espoused by Jesus Christ. And that morality expouses love for your fellow man which precludes preventive war, oppression of the poor and weak, slavery, hatemongering, and all of the other evils with which the world is afflicted. Jesus was quite the pacifist not even calling for the overthrow of the opressive governments of the time. Sometimes I regret his not doing so, but I understand how this would have compromised the consistency of his moral message.<br /> <br />So I am revulsed as I observe the hateful behaviour of so-called Christians towards their fellow citizens and global neighbors. WWJD? I think he would have continued to preach his moral message of faith, hope and love inviting all to listen and rise to the spiritual heights of which human beings are fully capable. <br /> <br />Dan<br /><br />Jay--<br /><br />When I speak to my neighbors (my real community in physical terms) about how things are from my perspective, the gulf seems to get wider. We look at each other as if the other one is under some trance. Worse, I fear we pity each other's stupidity and that grows the mistrust even more. Publicly and in private we acknowledge how may good characteristic we share; generosity, charity, parenting, etc. However, that does not make for a glue that would bind us in common action, since we both see each other as misguided and oppressed by forces we are unaware of. I see my conservative neighbors as unable to distinguish what would be in their best interests (health care, etc), they see me as a liberal with no respect for individual rights (ie property, guns, etc). I don't think I will be coming to Jesus soon (social Buddhism not with standing), and I don't think they will "wake-up" and see they are drinking the Koolaid of commercialism. <br /><br />If there is some liberation theology that bridges the divide, great. However, I think that my neighbors are more motivated by returning to a world of Ozzie and Harriet and Father Knows Best, than the gospel. <br /><br />PaulJay Salterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07091593066724767384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-14038657403830226732010-09-03T13:18:26.303+02:002010-09-03T13:18:26.303+02:00The point is that christians in America don't ...The point is that christians in America don't share the ideology you advocate. Their efforts go toward eradicating abortion; stopping stem cell research; making a sacrament of gun ownership. As soon as MLK targeted poverty as THE issue in America, he was marginalised. Rev. Wright blankly states a few truisms about American society and Obama drops him like a bad habit. Yours are not their concerns.stuntednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-69176134280196166432010-09-03T08:06:54.842+02:002010-09-03T08:06:54.842+02:00Just as the heavy lifting in trying to defang AIPA...Just as the heavy lifting in trying to defang AIPAC is something the Jewsih community has to work out, I think the "what is Christian" has to be worked out among the Christian community, I think it would need some sort of anti-teaparty movement with the slogan (get this) "We want our Jesus back". So Beck understands where the danger is coming from... the Christians themselves. Ideology has to be fought with ideology.David Seaton's Newslinkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00269813419598042699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-49218846042747981132010-09-03T06:08:34.240+02:002010-09-03T06:08:34.240+02:00Your blogging about the Koch's keeps reminding...Your blogging about the Koch's keeps reminding me of Lang's Metropolis. While watching it a few weeks ago at Chicago's Siskel Film Center I concluded that liberation theology was the only possible justification for religion.-bwgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-81688556588248897722010-09-03T04:23:48.864+02:002010-09-03T04:23:48.864+02:00The day Republicans and the gutter reactionary pre...The day Republicans and the gutter reactionary press abandon the Southern Strategy some of this may become possible. Think it'll happen? I'm only grateful that Blade Runner reality seems to be sometime in the future.oldfatherwilliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05772846617790858976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-83337361008957737452010-09-03T01:31:44.713+02:002010-09-03T01:31:44.713+02:00Glenn Beck was on "Fox on Sunday" the da...Glenn Beck was on "Fox on Sunday" the day after his Beckapalooza in D.C. specifically targeting Obama's christianity as un-american due to its liberation theology bent. The acceptable form of christianity is that of personal salvation, not one of collectively righting wrongs. This is all Beck's interpretation and I mention this only to show why there will never be a rebellion of the type you envisage in this country. The believers do not see themselves as victims because to do so is profoundly un-american. They want to be left alone, not join a struggle. Obama is encroaching on their freedoms with his health care and his debt relief for other people. He's a meddler who must be stopped. They also believe that he was all about change. As a bumper sticker puts it: "I'll take my freedom, guns and money. You can keep the spare change." <br /><br />The religious movement in America is deeply conservative. People who turned out to vote for Obama also must have voted against gay marriage in California because Prop. 8 passed very comfortably. It's not atheists and agnostics passing anti-immigration laws around the country simply because there aren't enough to carry the measures through. American religious populism is defined by its intolerance. Brain-dead bigotry inhabits "deep" America.<br />Thinking that the world is 6000 years old is a type of sedition that leaves you nothing to work with. Paris vaut peut-etre bien une messe; pas ce genre de connerie abjecte. I fear that Americans will need to feel a lot more pain than this recession is inflicting before they stop seeing the Koch bros. as people to emulate. Even then, they'll more likely opt for a soft, cuddly form of fascism that Beck, Palin, Limbaugh or some yet to appear populist will nudge us toward. Populism in America is not progressive. The New Deal was a long time ago and we've been steadily undoing it ever since. I don't know what is, but religion is not the answer.stuntednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-53651801094570475432010-09-02T15:13:31.923+02:002010-09-02T15:13:31.923+02:00Saw an article recently listing the 10 wealthiest ...Saw an article recently listing the 10 wealthiest members of the Senate.<br /><br />Most of them were Democrats.<br /><br />Just in case anyone still does not know why the Democrats are doing all they can to support the plutocratic oligarchy at the expense of average folks.fillmorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-7548197423524944992010-09-01T22:09:58.569+02:002010-09-01T22:09:58.569+02:00David, I believe those you speak of have an even g...David, I believe those you speak of have an even greater fear: realizing and admitting that they have been completely suckered; I think they'd rather die than admit that. In other words, they are dug in for the duration.<br />I believe it is inevitable that the system will eventually fall apart and that is our only hope.<br />Philip<br />PS Han is right about the song ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36646589.post-62274733842830078962010-09-01T21:06:48.792+02:002010-09-01T21:06:48.792+02:00Good article! But the song you quoted is by Pink F...Good article! But the song you quoted is by Pink Floyd, not the Who.Hannoreply@blogger.com